Podcast #30 – Judit Polgar: The Woman Who Beat the Chess World | Mission Possible Podcast

Doug Dvorak (00:02.132)
Excellent. Let me close that. Good day, Mission Possible Podcast Nation. I’m your host, Doug Dvorak, and I’m extremely excited and honored today to have women’s world number one chess champion and trailblazer, Judit Polgar. Judit, thank you so much for your time. I could spend 60 minutes just reading your accomplishments. You were born in Budapest, Hungary. You’ve held the number one position.

from 1989 for 26 years, that’s 1,360 weeks or 9,552 days. You were the first woman to compete against many of the male competitors. You have a number of world championships as well as the youngest grand master that you achieved at 15 and a half years old. So.

What I’d like to do is if you can take me back and I was fascinated by your Netflix documentary and specifically your father who I believe was a very huge influencer not only for the family but for your two sisters and what really struck me is trying to think outside the box reading approximately 2000 biographies and autobiographies.

of the greatest minds across a variety of different disciplines. And he came up with that system to create for you and your sisters. And he chose chess or maybe you chose chess at around five. Can you take us through that journey of that experiment and your commitment to excellence? And as I recall from reading about you and seeing the Netflix documentary, you spent

12, 14, 16 hours a day playing and drilling chess. Can you walk us through, as I call it, the grand experiment and how that worked for you,

Judit (02:06.958)
Well, it’s a big question, many questions immediately. Well, I grew up in a very special family. My parents, my father had the first thought that once he’s going to get married, then he wants to be focusing on one specific field. And he wants his daughters or sons, children, not to go to school, but being homeschooled.

And then he found my mom and…

So there became the my father’s idea and my mother was supporting him in every way. And I have two sisters, Susan, seven years older than I am. And she was the first one who started to be very good in mathematics and in chess when she was four years old. And then my father thought, OK, it’s about time to make a decision. Which one is going to be? And it was chess because chess is something which is much more measurable.

and then she was playing very well and then my other sister, the middle sister, she’s a year and a half older than I am. So by the time I was five years old, it was the most natural thing for me to do than to play chess as well. So this is how it all started.

And of course, in the beginning, I learned the moves from my mom. Then later on, it was my father. And the time from 10 minutes, it grew 15 minutes, one hour, two hours. And by the time I was nine years old and I won my first international tournament, I was indeed playing chess already daily seven, eight hours. It was not 12 and not 14 and not 16. It was a little exaggeration. But indeed, chess was

Doug Dvorak (03:53.703)
Yeah.

Judit (03:57.76)
was the everyday life activity because we were focusing a lot on chess, on training and in competition and doing the schoolwork only in some focused several weeks before the exams.

Doug Dvorak (04:15.764)
Excellent. I’ve interviewed a lot of professional athletes and leaders in their respected fields. Most are well balanced, but some are not because they’ve sacrificed so much in their childhood. You seem to be a very happy go lucky, well balanced individual, yet you spent so much time sacrificing. How did that early

You said you were homeschooled. It differed from traditional education paths. But did you have to give up a lot whilst growing up? You speak a little bit about that in the documentary. Could you unpack that for us?

Judit (04:59.102)
Basically, I think the lifestyle we had, I was extremely fortunate that I have two sisters. And that is really a very important part of my education. Because while, of course, you make your education when you’re in primary school, you learn reading and writing and math and geography later on and many other things. First of all, for my parents, it was not very important.

how well we are performing in schools. So that was something that, okay, you just pass and it’s fine because that will be not the important part of life. Because we are going to be learning things by living, by traveling around the world. And especially in those days in the 80s, 90s, it was a huge thing for a Hungarian person to travel, to understand and experience different cultures and meeting people and understanding the world.

So that was basically the main education we all received. But I also think really that having two sisters and in that environment we were so close to each other from the very beginning and we were supporting each other so much.

that that gave a really big balance for me. And also, like my parents were balancing pretty well each other while my father was always the person who wanted to achieve big results. He was looking for who are going to be the trainers, how to manage the training sessions, which tournament to play, especially in the beginning, how to create new strategies, new planning for long-term or

term. At the same time my mother was making the home, the real home, the warmth of home, right? The emotional, the you know cooking and cleaning and giving the shoulder when you’re crying or laughing or sharing and these two together made a great balance that it obviously for all three of us

Judit (07:12.512)
It was obvious that while we are athletes and we want to give the best performance, we are going to have families, we are going to have kids. So that was a very natural way of thinking about life, how it develops in our life. So I think this gave the great balance.

Doug Dvorak (07:32.464)
Excellent. So you start out, you’re highly competitive and you’re winning most all of the chess matches and tournaments against women. Then you chose to compete or try to compete with men. What resistance or skepticism did you face early on in your chess career when you were trying to play, you know, Kasparov and the other champions?

Judit (08:02.164)
I mainly played from a very young age as a child against adult men, mainly in open competitions. And I had only made the exceptions for the women’s chess Olympiad, which we won for Hungary together with my sisters and one other girl, Ilyko Model. So those were the big exceptions. And it was also a big milestone because I played the best performance of the whole Olympiad when I was just 12 years old. But later on, of course, it was a huge

challenge that it’s a male-dominated sport as it comes very much clearly across from the Netflix documentary film which was about me. And it is like that because there is no woman who wanted to compete and challenge the very best players successfully. And of course I experienced, first of all you have to visualize in a tournament which is lasting two weeks.

let’s say we play one long game every day for five six hours it can last and I’m the only female participant and nine other male participants are playing so of course

you can understand how strange it was for top grandmasters that what is this lady doing here between us. So actually one of the stories I had that when I was playing with in Linares this big event which considered to be the Wimbledon of chess, as most of the tournament when I was not playing it was all men. So there were separate bathrooms for the chess players and when the it was doesn’t matter that they went into the female

male bathroom or the male bathroom. So suddenly on one occasion when I was playing, I found myself in the ladies bathroom opposite to me with Garry Kasparov. And it’s like, you know, we were looking at each other for a second, like who is in the wrong place? Because it was just so un-normal.

Doug Dvorak (09:58.48)
my goodness.

Judit (10:03.022)
to have a woman in that level of competition. So there were like funny segments like this, but also it took time for them to understand that I’m just part of the elite environment and big competitions. But after some time they got used to it. But of course, when I was 13, 14, 15, they made comments, she’s lucky.

was sick today and she was lucky again and she tricked the opponent and the opponent played well just blundered so of course I had to perform and show my skills ten times more than if I would have been a boy that’s very clear at the same time it was nice that I was playing I was the only only female player and I was beating them many times

Doug Dvorak (10:53.204)
That’s great. So you’ve defeated multiple world champions, including Garry Kasparov. What mindset does it take to beat the very best?

Judit (11:03.832)
First of all, you have to be a competitor. You have to have monotony in part of your life, whether it’s physical sport or mental sport, you have to go again and again, analyze the same segments, trying to be very self-critical to be able to renew yourself at some point with new ideas.

You have to have perseverance. You have to have this character of not giving up and try it again and again and again again. You have to have this grit to be able to go all the way up and to keep yourself up.

because it’s a completely different skill in some ways. When you’re the underdog, you’re climbing up and up, but when you reach that point and actually people say, okay, she’s really good, but then the expectation rise and suddenly they say, okay, she’s one of us, show us that.

you can perform. So that’s a different skills in some ways. That’s when you’re an underdog, you can kick back and you’re winning and nobody believes and everybody’s trying to beat you. So it’s easier to make mistake for them. So that’s a different part when you’re up there, how you keep yourself motivated, how you try to move forward. And it’s not easy.

Doug Dvorak (12:43.488)
I found it fascinating in the buildup of the many matches you had against Kasparov and he’s a very at least his chess game face and his demeanor. When I watched the the documentary walking to the to the chessboard you were already there and it was fascinating. You know as your relationship evolved with Kasparov you were invited or you went to

his home, I believe it was in Croatia, and he was actually laughing, smiling. I never saw him laughing or smiling in a competition, but you actually went to his home with your husband and you, I guess, learned from him or had some free time with him and going to the beach. Can you tell us a little bit about that experience? Because I found it fascinating.

Judit (13:39.374)
Yes, that was very special because in 2001, I played with him in this exact tournament again in Linares, where he was in great form. It was a classical event, so it was a two-week event. And I was playing with the white pieces and also with the black pieces, so we played two games. And both of the games were extremely interesting. Even though both were a draw and none of us won the game, we still got

for one of the games the best game prize. So I think that made him understand that I’m really good and it’s not by chance anymore. And I gained respect from him and he got curious that maybe it would be interesting to play for a few days and train together and he also can get some idea. And then he invited me to the place where he’s usually going to recharge.

and plan his next event in Croatia. And then I went with my husband and that was a very interesting experience. And actually it was part of the road that I was able to beat him, think. Because, you know, when you see a goat from distance, you see someone who is excellent, sharp, perfect.

really so amazing in that field. But when he allows you to see him in an everyday relaxed way, not in the student tie set up, but in shorts, in relaxation and in training.

you get the feeling that he’s a human also he’s laughing he has a bad moment he has a good moment he’s going to the sea to to swim we went to the banana boat he fell into the water so

Judit (15:38.73)
It is completely different moments that we lived there in the training camp together. And then I felt also that I’m not afraid of him so much. And he’s a human, he makes mistakes. And when we were analyzing, I also felt that, of course he was a better player, but still I could give some ideas. I had ideas that it was interesting for him as well.

And that gave me more self-confidence when I was playing against him. So for him, maybe it was not a wise choice to open himself towards me and inviting me for a training session. But that was a very interesting experience and I think I benefited from that for sure.

Doug Dvorak (16:27.912)
You talked about Kasparov recharging at his beach home there. How do you recharge? mean, these are intense, you know, as you said, six, seven hours of intense intensity, focus. How do you recharge?

Judit (16:45.538)
When I was playing in competitions, I had my routine. It was, I woke up in the morning, I was making my gym exercises for an hour, hour and a half, depending what time the game started. If it was like two, three o’clock, four o’clock PM, then I had more time. And then I was only having a brunch. Mostly I only had one meal before my game. Of course I was making my preparation of two, three hours and then the

depending how long the game lasted, 3, 4, 5, 6 hours, then after the game for sure I was ready to write down the notes, what my thoughts were, or entering in the computer in later times, and then I was ready to leave that game. Whether I lost, I made a big mistake, I won, all those emotions, whether it was positive or negative, I was ready to let it go, which was very important,

was one of the greatest skills I had as a competitor because it is very difficult when you make mistakes. How do you get over that?

And I was very good in that, closing the game of that day. And then I was recharging more in tournaments by going for a walk. That’s a typical sport of chess players, going with the coach together, or I was traveling with my mom most of the time. Then we were just going, talking, chatting, and relaxing. So during the tournament, this was the way I was relaxing. I was also reading a bit if I had time.

But for example, I was not watching movies really. I was more of reading small things and more chatting with my mom or calling my sisters. Those were the recharging times.

Doug Dvorak (18:40.98)
Excellent. So you talked about your preparation for a match. Do you have any rituals or superstitions, luck charms or things that you would follow that you’d like to share?

Judit (18:55.948)
You know I had when I was a kid, I did have…

I had a lucky lion, it was a wooden lion, which was one of my coaches when he went out to Kenya. He brought back and he gave it to me. So I was playing with this little wooden lion that I was putting it next to the chessboard towards facing my opponent. And so I had that for quite some time. Latent, of course, I had winning pens and winning sweater. So I had those.

things but after some time I had to give up on that.

Doug Dvorak (19:34.932)
Excellent. So chess is often called the ultimate mental sport. What are the key components of elite level thinking for you in the height of competition?

Judit (19:49.518)
During the game you mean?

Doug Dvorak (19:52.136)
during the game.

Judit (19:56.042)
Well, during the game, first of all, of course, when you start the game, it depends already on what kind of mental state you are. The professional and idle mental state is when you made your preparation in every way. You made your physical preparation, so you have the endurance.

You made your preparation against the opponent, so you analyzed your opponent very well, so you are aware of his or their weaknesses and their strength, and you made your preparation about yourself that on that day exactly what you’re ready to be playing, what strategy you’re playing, what opening moves you’re going to be playing, and also that

whatever preparation you made, when it stops your homework, then you’re ready to focus, to calculate, to find the moment which is the critical moment of a game. Because out of, let’s say, you play a game of 45 moves, it means that probably there are maximum three moments which you have to pick

that this is a moment where I have to make a serious decision. So I spend time thinking.

because it’s a critical moment. So this is, for example, one of the most important parts. If you’re the higher you go, the more you’re going to be seeing that you know this, you feel this, that what is the crucial moment that it’s a decision to make. You go left or right, which direction you go in the game. And also time management is something very important in chess. So you can practice a lot that it is very advised not to get in time pressure.

Judit (21:45.376)
pressure and to adapt.

It’s also very important because in a chess game, if you play even a longer game, it can last 60 or 80 moves. Of course, it happens that you make a mistake. You don’t have time to think about it and analyze why did I make that mistake. You have to be ready to make mistakes, get over it, still fight, and to adapt to the new situation. If you have a winning position, you ruin it and suddenly it’s a draw or you’re losing or you’re losing, you made a mistake.

but you have to move on and go on and fight. So to adapt is also something extremely important.

Doug Dvorak (22:27.806)
So how do you recover mentally after a loss or a setback? You talked a little bit about that. But what is sort of your mindset? it forget about it, learn in the moment? But how do you recover mentally after a loss or a bad move or a setback in a match?

Judit (22:44.822)
You know, it very much depends what kind of loss I made. If my opponent outplayed me and it was a very good game, I’m not even disappointed really, because I know that I played the best I could, but my opponent was even better.

The problem comes when I make a mistake, unnecessary mistake, or I blunder something. So I’m like really bothered by that. How could I do this? You know, this crazy mistake. It is so much below my level. Those are the real problems to handle. This is a big problem.

Everybody handles it differently. I knew some players who could not handle it and actually they had the whole tournament got ruined. I was more or less getting over it the way that for me it was important to understand what has happened. So after the game I made a little analysis observing where did I go wrong and what could go wrong.

But it was important that you don’t have the time to really put yourself under the magnify glasses that really what are the small details. You have to let it go. But at the same time, after the tournament, you have to go back and analyze the problem of that. Why did that happen and how to fix it?

But you have to have good nerves and the stability in order to understand that you have to move on.

Doug Dvorak (24:17.492)
Excellent. How important is pattern recognition versus creativity in chess?

Judit (24:24.972)
Patron recognition is essential. It is essential in the opening phase, in the middle game, in the end game. Basically we have these three parts of a chess game and we do work on that because the top players, work a lot on the opening because how the whole thing starts, it makes a big difference. At the same time also, of course, strong players has to be aware of lot of theory in end games when there are less pieces already. So there are a lot of theory of that.

And middle game is the most complicated. Middle game is like you’re going in the jungle and you don’t know. You have your nose to feel which direction you go, but actually you have your instinct. But you have to be very much alert to understand that you go this way, there is a hole. Okay, I have to go this way. So in chess also, you have to be ready to adjust and…

plan it again and again. If you go to a bad route, you say, okay, I have to go back because I admit I made a mistake and I have to go differently. So that is something important to know which direction to go.

Doug Dvorak (25:41.492)
Excellent. So what separates great players from world champions? Top three things in your mind.

Judit (25:52.622)
Timing and luck is there because there are incredibly fantastic players who don’t reach to become world champion. Determination on the highest level.

Judit (26:18.638)
and that incredible character of a fighter. But I think you have to want it so desperately. And in many times, it’s not that the biggest champions love to win. It’s not only that. They love to win. That’s true. But the other part of it, they hate to lose.

Doug Dvorak (26:45.086)
Hate to lose. I love that.

Judit (26:46.766)
Sometimes it’s not anymore that they want to win so much, but one thing is sure that they hate to lose.

Doug Dvorak (26:54.718)
So it’s difficult to be a world champion. It’s difficult to be a grandmaster and obtaining that success. But the hardest thing about success is maintaining it. What habits or routines helped you sustain excellence over the decades?

Judit (27:17.678)
uh persistent to move on and and and show up make your training every day basically that’s the that’s the key the other key element is to that after some time you’re

your patterns are not good anymore, they know it. So you have to renew yourself again and again. I’m not saying too many times, but if you are there for decades, surely you have to get different approaches, which means that you have to change your coaches, you have to work with different people to get different angles of understanding.

That’s definitely something very important. And you also have to be in good physical shape to be able to do all this.

Doug Dvorak (28:08.852)
Excellent. I live in a ski resort in Idaho and one of my neighbors was Andre Agassi, the tennis champion. And I got to know him a little bit and I read his book, Open. And later on in his career, he hated tennis. He didn’t have the passion. What is your mindset or your feeling if you’d like to share it on chess after so much time, commitment, sacrifice? Do you still?

enjoy, love, and are passionate about chess.

Judit (28:43.572)
I love the game but I don’t compete anymore.

And I retired in 2014, more than a decade ago, because I simply was doing too much, writing books, established my foundation, organizing a festival, making public speaking. I do many other things and it was just impossible to manage everything. And as I understood that I can inspire people outside of the chessboard, I liked it, but this meant also that I gave up.

Sorry, what was the question? I deviated, I think.

Doug Dvorak (29:20.148)
That’s okay. So you retired in 2014 from competition, but you’re still involved in the game of chess, the chess industry, and you’re still passionate about it. Maybe not. Go ahead.

Judit (29:33.409)
yeah.

Absolutely. I really love the game. So that was not the reason I retired from competitive chess, because I don’t like the game. It’s the only thing that when you’re a competitor on the highest level, you cannot afford doing many other things. You lose your focus. And I love the game. I make expert commentary on world championships and candidate tournament and big events. And I love chess puzzles. So I think chess is

itself. It’s a great game. And also, which I want to turn back a little bit, what is also very important when you maintain your top level, and generally in life, think, curiosity. So that you’re curious, you’re asking questions all the time, and you want to

get new ideas, new inputs, new everything, right? And it comes when you’re a kid, that’s how you learn the fastest. And many people lose that skill, which is a pity because from that you can still keep yourself enthusiastic about things.

Doug Dvorak (30:47.124)
Tell me about and our listeners about your foundation. I’m interested. What is the name of it? How can people find it? How can they support it? Tell me about your foundation, please.

Judit (30:59.308)
I established in 2012 the Judit Polgar Chest Foundation.

And we are promoting chess for everyone, but we specifically doing a lot for chess in education. We have our own program. I have the program chess palace, which is not taught by me, but we have the program and we are teaching the school teachers who are using it in schools and also in kindergarten from age four to 10. And we have about 4,000, over 4,000 teachers who took the course and about

50,000 kids are taking part in some way in our programs around Hungary. Also in China they were using in some parts this method. And also we do the Judit Polgar Global Chess Festival which we are going to organize for the 12th year. Continuously we are doing it this autumn.

And in this festival, we like to show how chess can be integrated to everything and it has a connection to not only in sport, but also in education and also in art. Because chess is something that it gives a lot to people for not only in education for kids, but also it’s a great language which connects people. It’s like music or dancing. And we like to give this message.

and also the playing itself, how important it is and the experience.

Doug Dvorak (32:36.233)
If people want to find out more about your foundation or make a financial contribution, how would they find you online?

Judit (32:45.666)
Well, we have the website. If they look for Judit Polgar Chess Foundation, I think it will come up. And there, of course, we are happy if we get support. And we try our best to promote the game and to make the benefits for all ages.

Doug Dvorak (33:04.038)
Excellent. You talked about life lessons, the language, the beauty of What can young people learn aside from the game of chess, some life lessons?

Judit (33:15.16)
Chess is a great metaphor for life in many ways. If they start to play chess, they understand that there are rules.

and I think it goes very much for life also. We have some rules, right, which we have to keep it, though these days these frameworks and rules are getting sometimes disappearing, which is a problem, because it’s very important to understand what is your playground, right? So for the chessboard, it’s a 64 square checkered board where you have six different characters and you’re the boss

who is leading this team. And today, of course, everybody wants to say in this society that it’s individual, you can do anything, you can be yourself, you can make business, you can be a millionaire, whatever, it’s you, you, you, you. But after all…

alone you cannot do anything. If you don’t have your team in work or you don’t have your partner who you can share your happiness and bad moments, it’s not worth it. So I do believe that teamwork is something essential and collaboration. So this you can also learn on the chessboard how you navigate your pieces. In chess you can learn that some of the pieces are standing best when they have opportunity. So you give opportunity

for your pieces. You also learn that everything has its value. If you sacrifice a rook, it is painful to lose it, but maybe if you give checkmate, you still win the game. Which means that in life also, you have to decide sometimes you have to make sacrifices. You don’t go to the pub, you don’t go hang out because you want to work, because you want to get a job, right? So there are so many things

Judit (35:10.498)
that through chess it can be also learned or you play a full game you understand that sometimes you make mistakes, but it’s not only you who make mistakes, then you have a new opportunity when your opponent is making a mistake. And that’s how things are. If you make one mistake, you don’t give up because making mistakes, it’s part of the journey towards success.

So there are lot of things that also being very analytical, responsibility, handling the loss and go there and show up for the next game because new game starts freshly, you have your next opportunity. Preparation, also if you blunder something, immediately they capture your pieces, then you understand that you made a mistake. So there are a lot of things kids can learn from this.

And I think it’s very beneficial for the future generation to play this game. you can play it forever because it is something very important. I just met actually a few hours ago the Polish finance minister who actually loves to play chess. And he also believes in that, how great chess is because it teaches you to think about different strategies and the consequences and so on.

Doug Dvorak (36:30.352)
Excellent. So every morning if I’m watching the news or reading a business publication or journal, it’s AI AI AI. How is chess being impacted by AI?

Judit (36:45.994)
immensely, basically technology has its best test material, its chess. And it goes back for a long time to Turin, but also later on, if I go back only 30 years, when Kasparov was challenging Deep Blue.

in the first match he won but some time after that, a year after that or two, they played this match in 97, 30 years ago and Deep Blue won. So this was a huge shock for the whole chess world but not only to the chess world but also to the world itself and everything. What happens with us

if a computer beats a human being in chess, this is something unbelievable. So of course many people were panicking and my god chess it’s over for the sport of chess. Of course it was not over, but it dramatically changed it because we started to use engines in our preparation and I see quite a bit of a parallel how people are acting

judging and experiencing the chat box for example, chat bots in these days because I had that experience myself.

For example, when I was playing, analyzing, I made my preparation and the computer was suggesting moves, that’s how the chess preparation goes, the engine gives an alternative. This is the best move. And also it gives an evaluation to it. So when I was making my preparation for a game against the English Grandmaster, I said, okay, before the game I was analyzing, if I go here, here, here, here, okay, then I go this, I see the engine says, after,

Judit (38:35.856)
this move you’re winning. So I say okay fine I made my preparation. I went to the game, I’m making all these moves, it’s move 18 or something and I have that position on the board. I say I’m winning without making a single move with my whole preparation. My opponent thought for like 15 or 20 minutes. I realized that it’s obviously it was a surprise to him and then he reacted and then I had to make a decision.

What I calculated there, I understood that I have to agree to a draw with the repetition of moves, so none of us wins, it’s a draw. We split the point. But I say no, it’s impossible. The computer said I’m winning, so it should be winning. Maybe I can go somewhere else with my king and I’m going to be winning. I moved out of the perpetual check, the draw, and I lost the game. So of course I lost

Doug Dvorak (39:19.311)
Hahaha

Judit (39:31.67)
the trust in the engine and the computer, so after that I had to rebuild it and understand how to work with it, and these days I see this, that you have some trust, you’re losing it because it’s hallucinating, it’s lying to you and so on. So it is very difficult to keep the balance. And later on it was the Alpha Zero, which was incredible.

That was, I think, 2017 or 18, something like that. And that brought to chess some freshness because suddenly you could realize, you could see the moments where the world champion, Magnus Carlsen, at the time…

got ideas and got inspiration from the AlphaZero machine. He made some choices that it very much was clear that it came this idea, this way of thinking from the machine. So that was the first time where we could see very clear signs that even a world champion, the highest level of player, got very clear signs that he took from the computer.

Doug Dvorak (40:19.849)
Mm-hmm.

Judit (40:42.112)
So it changed the game quite a bit because many people, of course, all the top players using computers 24-7, so they are very well equipped with ideas and self-confidence. At the same time, of course, it’s not enough to know that what is the best move or nice idea, but you have to spend a lot of time to understand it.

And this is, think, also something which I translate very much to today’s chatbot era that many kids, especially youngsters, but probably adults as well, that’s why it’s so dangerous that they give an answer, but we don’t spend enough time to understand it.

And this is something very important, how to make those ideas which fits to our personality or our way of thinking. So understanding is a completely different thing than just having the answer.

Doug Dvorak (41:38.608)
Interesting. Let’s talk a little bit about your Netflix documentary. Your story has reached a global audience through the Netflix documentary. What inspired you to share your journey in this format?

Judit (41:51.766)
Well, you know, I got many inquiries from different documentary makers and after some time I said, you know what, I give myself one month and then let’s decide who we are going to be working or I just don’t do it, but let’s decide. And then I get an email and I had a meeting with Rory Kennedy and she says that just a week ago, I pitched this idea, I just heard, I didn’t know that you

I didn’t know anything about you. You have to give it to me. I want to make this movie.” And she was so enthusiastic and she’s working with her husband. It’s a small company. And said, it’s obvious. How is it possible that I know Fisher? I know Kasparov, but how is it possible I don’t know you? And it was important for me that a woman is telling my story.

Doug Dvorak (42:48.436)
Yes.

Judit (42:48.762)
And also she’s a non-chess player person. So I was extremely curious how someone without knowing me, without being a fan, without having any knowledge about the world I was living in.

and also of course she didn’t know about my family also, that how she can present it for people who are non-chess players and the same never heard about my story. So this was something very interesting for me and I did not have expectations because in a documentary I signed the contract and I have no edit rights, I have nothing. What I can do is

give my interviews, making introductions to the other participants who take part in the movie. So of course it was exciting. I had mixed feelings that how is it going to be, how it’s going to be presented. But I think it was important that I didn’t have expectations. And then after that, I was of course very happy because it became a very inspirational movie. And I got a lot of positive feedbacks from 11 years old.

81 years old. And also of course I love the fact that many people said I never heard of this story I go to the shop and I buy a chess set.

Doug Dvorak (44:14.832)
Excellent. So what message do you most want viewers to take away from the documentary?

Judit (44:21.568)
I think one of the main message I love that it was built on my matches against Kasparov that you should go on again and again and again and again in the fighting. If you have your goals, you should never give up.

and that you lose or something does not happen your way as you expected. It’s part of the journey of success. I think this is very important. The other one is how powerful it can be a family, the support system, having your sisters and family. Of course, you can say that it’s rare, but I think it happens and we have to value and appreciate that. But it can also be a friend or

or some other people, not necessarily only the family. But I think it shows very well how strong my family was and how much it supported me on that road. And you can start early, you can dream something big like my father did, and it can be successful. More or less this.

Doug Dvorak (45:36.34)
Excellent. Let’s, as we are going to be closing the podcast here in a couple of minutes, let’s talk about personal reflection and legacy. Looking back, what are you most proud of beyond your titles and victories?

Judit (45:52.416)
I think I’m most proud of the fact that I’m a person who likes to do good things and a person who stayed authentic all the way through. No matter whether I was a shy child or competitor, losing or winning or being an inspirational figure or role model for…

for girls, boys, having a lot of fans. I state who I am and what you hear, that’s me.

Doug Dvorak (46:27.994)
what you see and what I hear is what I get. Excellent. How do you define success today compared to earlier in your career?

Judit (46:36.236)
Well, you know, there was a very big change in my life when I retired because while you’re a sport athlete, it’s about winning, losing, right? Or draw, as it was highlighted by my husband in the movie. But it’s a competition.

And when I withdrew and retired, I understood that what is unbelievable in outside of competition of sport, if you do good things with my foundation, organizing events, teaching or whatever, it can be a win-win. You have to work hard for it, but it can be a win-win. And that was something, a very new discovery for me as a sport athlete.

Doug Dvorak (47:21.524)
Excellent. What legacy do you hope to leave in chess and beyond chess?

Judit (47:28.246)
Well, in chess I think it’s quite obvious that as a girl that you can fight for your…

whatever you dream of, you can go for it and you can become as good as a person can be, whether you’re a boy or a girl. So for me, I think it’s very natural that I believe in that. well, I hope still to do some things that will be important in my legacy. I hope that chess can be part of culture and education.

in a much deeper way and it can give a lot for…

for the future generation. And I think also that what I like people to notice how important these days critical thinking in the day where there are so many fake things and it’s so difficult for a 60 year old kid nowadays. What is real? What is not real? And their parents. So I hope I can do through education and chess to do something about it.

Doug Dvorak (48:42.664)
Last question before we get into the rapid fire round. What are you passionate about now in this next chapter of your life?

Judit (48:53.23)
Well, my biggest challenge is how to keep myself in balance in a way that I work not too much but enough. I can choose the projects which I love and I’m passionate about and I can do good things. And my health, so…

and my family, my small family with my husband and kids and my parents and sisters. So somehow I look forward as a challenge to have a balanced and quality life.

Doug Dvorak (49:29.684)
So if you could go in a time machine and go back 20, 30 years, what advice would Judit today give her younger self?

Judit (49:41.23)
Ha

Doug Dvorak (49:45.214)
That’s a tough one, I know.

Judit (49:47.178)
Yeah, it’s very hard what to say.

Keep staying cheerful.

Doug Dvorak (49:58.686)
not keep change keep three two one keep staying cheerful I love that now Judit this is my favorite part of the podcast I’ve loved it all it’s been in a high honor and privilege this is called the rapid fire round I’m gonna ask you ten questions and one or two quick word response are you ready

Judit (50:03.15)
Thanks.

Judit (50:23.01)
Well, maybe I say no, but okay.

Doug Dvorak (50:26.652)
Favorite opening move?

Judit (50:28.917)
E4.

Doug Dvorak (50:30.532)
One word that defines your mindset.

Judit (50:34.635)
Optimistic.

Doug Dvorak (50:36.372)
toughest opponent you ever faced.

Judit (50:44.654)
Kremnik.

Doug Dvorak (50:47.07)
Best advice you’ve ever received.

Judit (50:54.798)
I don’t know.

Doug Dvorak (50:57.246)
That’s fine, that’s an answer. A habit every high performer should develop.

Judit (51:02.817)
What, sorry?

Doug Dvorak (51:04.276)
A habit every high performer should develop.

Judit (51:17.034)
Do it every day.

Doug Dvorak (51:19.316)
Morning routine or night owl? Are you a morning person or a night owl?

Judit (51:24.31)
Night.

Doug Dvorak (51:25.745)
One book everyone should read.

Judit (51:32.96)
I don’t know.

Doug Dvorak (51:34.356)
That’s fine. Chess or life, which is harder?

Judit (51:38.968)
life.

Doug Dvorak (51:40.498)
Legacy in one sentence.

Judit (51:49.058)
My legacy.

Doug Dvorak (51:50.28)
Yes, your legacy. Or legacy in general, but your legacy.

Judit (51:59.426)
Girls can do it.

Doug Dvorak (52:01.838)
And what does mission possible mean to you?

Judit (52:10.614)
Mission Impossible is possible.

Doug Dvorak (52:14.45)
Mission impossible is possible. love it. Judit, this 50 minutes has flown such a high honor and privilege. A great story. If people want to reach out to you, she’s got the Judit Polgar Chess Foundation. Please check her out online and be generous with your time and your contributions to do that. She’s a very kind person and she’s trying to make the world a better place.

in a variety of different ways, being positive, accessible, and telling her great story. Thank you, Mission Podcast community. Check us out on missionpossible.biz and Carpe Diem.

Judit (52:57.582)
Bye.

Doug Dvorak (52:58.524)
All right, so hold on. Let me stop.